Evil Black Guns: Rifle vs. Shotgun

[Adaminak]

In a home defense aspect, I'm not a really big fan of the assault rifle genre. They've got their uses, but for civilian use I've never seen them as much more than an entertaining time at the range. My employer is good enough to give me one with cool gadgets when I actually have to assault things or defend against assaults, so I've never seriously considered one for my personal arsenal.

My philosophy has been if I need to defend my home, (the only place I'm guaranteed to have a long-gun of any type) I'd prefer to keep the perps as far outside as possible, waiting for the LEO to arrive. My house sits relatively centered on an almost square .79 acre lot with forest front, back and both sides. This to me equates to a medium-bore scoped rifle capable of getting through small trees. If they get within 30 yards (about the woodline edge of my yard), I'd prefer to make the switch to a good shotgun with buckshot. Inside the house is another story as the shotgun is still usable but to a lesser degree because of its size...which is where handguns and frangible bullets come into play.

Now, this is all my theory. I haven't put much deliberate thought into it because I don't foresee much likelihood of a home siege. I've got time on my hands right now, so I figured I might as well flesh my plan out a bit more. Feel free to pick holes in my theory so I can further refine. I'm open to any downfalls you see, but I would really prefer you have an alternative instead of just pointing out flaws.

Here's the fun part (for me at least): I'll use your suggestions to refine my plan and make a determination about what black gun I should buy: An M-4 derivative or a Benelli M-2, M-3 or M-4 Tactical 12 ga. Maybe even some other single weapon or combination of weapons I haven't thought of yet.

[n2moto]

A few questions first. Do you live alone? Do you have somebody you would have to secure in another bedroom? Do you live in a 2 story house? Is your plan to clear your house or ambush them from a static location?

[tightgroup]

The shotgun would not be a bad choice but I would go with an AR in with a 16" barrel. You can hit them short range or long and it is far more accurate than a shotgun. Get some good ammo, like Hornady TAP, and you should be good to go.

[ofcmarc]

10-22(couple 50rd mags), 870 then the handguns.......

[Adaminak]

A few questions first. Do you live alone? Do you have somebody you would have to secure in another bedroom? Do you live in a 2 story house? Is your plan to clear your house or ambush them from a static location?

I was going to elaborate on this but didn't want the first post to be a big monster...

Wife and two kids in a two-story split level with attached garage. Bottom floor has windows with the burglar resistant stick-on crap, top floor is reachable only with a ladder or via the back porch into the sliding kitchen door. Only truly bullet resistant location in the house is under the partial basement slab accessed through the back of a basement closet (wife and kids can get back in there past all the heating ducts...my "larger" profile won't fit). My worry about that is one way in, one way out. Not a big deal as the wife can hold her own with a handgun...unless the house catches fire.

I'm not worried about securing the house and property...stuff can be replaced, and that's what insurance is for (would have a claim with all the holes in the walls anyway). I just want to make sure my family is safe and we all live to testify against whoever makes it.

I had thought about the 10-22 as I've already got one, but I don't put a lot of faith in its ability to actually stop a person. I'm starting to think any centerfire rifle might be overkill, as the furthest shot I'd likely have would be out my kitchen door to the other side of the empty lot behind me, and that's not much over 120yds, and most of it is so dense you can actually only see about 10yds into the tree line. What about a pistol-caliber carbine, something like a stocked MP-5? Do they make 'em in anything other than 9mm?

[ofcmarc]

I had thought about the 10-22 as I've already got one, but I don't put a lot of faith in its ability to actually stop a person.

Lot of people killed every year by a little old .22.:o

[Fronty Owner]

Lot of people killed every year by a little old .22.:o

search arfcom. someone done a penetration test with a .22LR.
Even out to 100 or 150 yrs, he was getting passthru on a turkey wrapped with like two or three shirts and a coat.
Granted, turkey is less dense than human and he doesn't say what kind of coat it was.
I have seen poached deer with .22LR, and that was inside 50 yrds.
I would be interested in how the .22LR would fair against wild boar.

[MikeyB]

Wild boars is one tuff animal. I wouldn't go after one with a .22LR unless it's the only rifle I had left.

MikeyB

[Adaminak]

After looking at all the penetration results at boxotruth.com, I realize it doesn't really matter what I shoot indoors, it's still going to go through at least two walls. That said, I think I'm leaning towards the M-4. I should still be able find uppers regardless what the commies in congress do, and I can shoot everything from 22LR through .50 Beowolf. I really would like someone to chamber one in .500 S&W though. If I can find one used for under a grand, I might even be able to pick up a Mossberg 3-in-1 kit and still be under the price of a Benelli M4.

[Adaminak]

Lot of people killed every year by a little old .22.:o

Don't dispute that at all, and it's better than your fingernails in a gunfight, but I'd prefer to have something a little bigger when shooting things that fight back.

[Shovelhead]

Why rifle VS shottie?

Do you have only ONE screwdriver in your tool chest?

Get both, and use the proper tool for the job at hand.

In my house in the suburbs, the .45 will suffice until I get to the shottie.

In my place in the country, the EBR (which I may or may not have) may get the nod as the abitility to "Reach Out And Touch Someone" may be what I'm looking for.

It's nice to have choices. ;)

[Adaminak]

I think you're on to something...time to tell the OL to be watching for sales. Shotgun first (probably the Mossberg 500 kit) with an M-4 carbine to follow. Guess I need to read the long post on AR purchases again...

[Redleg]

I think the 22lr is getting on the irresponsible side. Sure it's capable of killing and makes for a nice "assassin" type weapon, but there is no stopping power. When you shoot somebody, you should be in fear of your life and use a weapon capable of neutralizing your target as quick as possible. A .22lr more often than not, is gonna pass through with little shock and hit who knows what on the other side, unless you use a hollow point that is probably gonna disintegrate without a jacket to control it.

[Fronty Owner]

Wild boars is one tuff animal. I wouldn't go after one with a .22LR unless it's the only rifle I had left.

MikeyB

I wouldn't go after one on the hoof with a .22LR. A shot of one hanging would be much safer.

I agree that using a .22LR as a home defense choice is a bit iffy, but if its the only hammer you have, no nail is too big if it has to be driven.

[Redleg]

I agree Dave, use watch you have within reach, although my .22 is generally the furthest away. I just don't want somebody shopping for one specificly for that to get the wrong impression.

[U.S MMA]

I would only go to the .22 as a last resort, although with the 50rnd mag, some damage could be done. My siege weapons are a little ol mini 14 with a bunch of mags, an Hk usp compact .45, and a ruger 338winmag. Need to get a shotgun. Ive always felt, as stated by shovelhead, that the right tool for the job applies to guns.

[n2moto]

22's kill people every year but they aren't fight stoppers.

The tool box idea is about as sound advice as you will get. Grab the right tool for the job.

[soulezoo]

Marlin used to make a little camp rifle in 44 mag. Very handy to the ranges and situation you describe and a suitable compromise to centerfire rifle/shotgun debate.

22lr... well yes many things have been poached/killed with it and I sure don't want to be shot with it... but I do not want to trust my life to it.

[Adaminak]

I remember the camp rifle, (thought they were 9mm/40/45?) but I also remember they weren't exactly reliable. Many years ago Ruger made a Bushmaster (or Deermaster for the PA market) 44 Mag carbine that looked like a 10/22 on steroids. I think they're great guns, just a little difficult to find right now, and would certainly fit the bill. My brother refuses to let me buy his, and I haven't found another one reasonably priced. I've also been looking for an H&K MP5 in 10mm, but no luck, at least for less than $2500 :(

Anyone handle or shoot the Beretta CX carbines?

[David]

Why not just "Master Key" the idea? Of course all NFA rules apply.:D

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos08/jun/mastrkeyb.jpg

[staarma]

Why not just "Master Key" the idea? Of course all NFA rules apply.:D

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos08/jun/mastrkeyb.jpg


That's about the coolest thing I've seen today.

I have a Winchester defender loaded with double 00 and 1 oz. slugs alternately. I take this camping as well for grizzlies and crazy people but always have my Glock on my side too. The Defender will get the job done. All of the houses in our hood are on at least 1 acre lots and bigger so I don't worry so much about strays from the Defender. Next, the Glock 22 is usually loaded up and ready for action until I get my hands on the Defender.

It's hard to balance readiness with young children in the house. The older two know about gun safety and what to do when they encounter a weapon but the three year old and friends from the hood are the ones I worry about.

[soulezoo]

If i could get my hands on a MP-5 in 10mm... I'd pay 2500 for it.

[David]

If i could get my hands on a MP-5 in 10mm... I'd pay 2500 for it.

You're about $14k short on what private individuals can buy.

[Adaminak]

I'm guessing the Gunsamerica ad was misrepresented. It listed a semi-auto, 10mm, MP-5 at $2500, and of course, it's not listed anymore for me to reference. Thinking about it...did they ever make a non-auto 10mm MP5?

[David]

I'm guessing the Gunsamerica ad was misrepresented. It listed a semi-auto, 10mm, MP-5 at $2500, and of course, it's not listed anymore for me to reference. Thinking about it...did they ever make a non-auto 10mm MP5?
There's companies that offer clone guns. $2500 would probably be about right for a registered short barreled rifle (requires $200 federal tax and govt paperwork) MP5 clone.

I was initially thinking of a full auto capable gun. At which point you'd be in the $15k-$20k range for private purchase.

[Adaminak]

I just found a reference to a 400 quantity production run of semi-auto MP-5 SBR in 10mm with an MSRP of $1400. Of course, those were contracted purchase, 1990-era dollars, and it doesn't look like there are many more out there. I've seen a few other blogs referencing 10mm MP5 (10mm talk, the high road, etc) but nothing recent. I also haven't found any of the clones in 10mm, but there are many in 9mm and 40 S&W.

[Adaminak]

I've used the Master Key and while it does work, it's designed as a breaching tool more than an actual usable shotgun. We initially tried using solid and semi-solid projectiles from an M-203 for breaching, but there were numerous...how can I say this..."overpenetration" issues ;) which led to the search for a more specialized solution.

I asked mama to buy me a stripped AR lower from a local (for her anyway) dealer who's retiring. I'm hoping so long as I have the serial number, I can add the rest piece by piece...kinda like Johnny's Cadillac :D

Now it's time to start combing classifieds for an 1100 Tactical.